'Nobel Peace Prize = Worthless? - You Be The Judge!'

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

The woman below LOST to Al Gore in 2007....

--> http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/sendler.asp

[Willy]

They've been worthless since Yasser Arafat was awarded one.

[RickN]

Sorry but I think they have been worthless since Hitler was nominated in 1938 I believe. There were also some worthy nominees this year that were passed over for Dear Leader.

[Nausicaa]

RickN, when making such incredible statements: "THEY nominated Hitler" you would do good to explain a little more - somebody could think you are oversimplifying things for propaganda purposes.
Here is the truth for our dear forum readers:
Hitler was nominated in 1939 by only one nominator: Brandt, a member of the swedish government I believe. The nomination was however shortly thereafter withdrawn in a letter from February 1939.

[RickN]

It does not matter that he was nominated by one then withdrawn, he was still nominated as was Stalin and Mussolini. Which taken with the deserving people passed over and some who have won, proves the peace prize is about politics not peace, and as such is worthless.

[Nausicaa]

Every single prize given has political aspects. You think the Oscar is any different? Think again. That doesn't make all the prizes given worthless neither does it mean all who got it didn't really deserve it. It's human and therefor not perfect, but it is not worthless.

[Willy]

Didn't know Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin were nominated. Somehow it's not surprising. Wonder if Mao or the Khmer Rouge were ever nominated?

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

Every single prize given has political aspects.

Interesting....
So what would you say are the political aspects of the prize with the current winner ?

[Willy]

This should be interesting if he even bothers with an answer.

[bzhyoyo]

I think he already did in the thread about the nobel peace prize announcement.:emot-angel:

[Nausicaa]

Yes Lionel is right I already did. That shows who actually reads posts, right Willy?

[Willy]

I read the ones that are informative, factual and non-biased. That leaves out most of yours.

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

Yes Lionel is right I already did. That shows who actually reads posts, right Willy?

Where....?


I think this is for everybody a total suprise. Of course the whacky American ultra-right will tear him to pieces for this - even if he is as suprised as anybody.
Unfortunately I think the Nobel commitee is very naive in their understanding of some mindsets in America. Their intentions are without doubt good and noble, but they might hurt Obama with this more then strengthen him, at least back in his own country. On the other hand this shows clearly how deep the gap is between the worldview of certain intellectual parts of Europe (especially scandinavian northern Europe) and the deeply provincial, conservative, religious and in many aspects backward American right. They have nothing in common anymore, it could as well be two different planets. In resume, I am happy for Obama, I think this will strenghten his international efforts for peace and disarmament..and I am deeply worried about his position "back home". Now more than ever.

[Nausicaa]

Look more !

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

Look more !

Okay I see your response (below)...However I have to make a statement in response to what I've BOLDED in you've stated..("he has a hatred faction against him that will do everything do sabotate him and will rejoice everytime something doesnt work out.")....I strongly counter in saying that Bush Jr. has a hatred faction against him that not only is much stronger than anything Obama has ever seen (since it's still lingering).....but I'll also say that people today are still trying to sabotage anything that even smells of Bush Jr...


I think this is for everybody a total suprise. Of course the whacky American ultra-right will tear him to pieces for this - even if he is as suprised as anybody.
Unfortunately I think the Nobel commitee is very naive in their understanding of some mindsets in America. Their intentions are without doubt good and noble, but they might hurt Obama with this more then strengthen him, at least back in his own country. On the other hand this shows clearly how deep the gap is between the worldview of certain intellectual parts of Europe (especially scandinavian northern Europe) and the deeply provincial, conservative, religious and in many aspects backward American right. They have nothing in common anymore, it could as well be two different planets. In resume, I am happy for Obama, I think this will strenghten his international efforts for peace and disarmament..and I am deeply worried about his position "back home". Now more than ever.


Of course the "12 days" thing is typical Fox News bullcrap propaganda as usual. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/10/09/tommy-seno-obama-nobel-prize-win/

In the mind of Oslo he is of course awarded for his efforts in the de-escalation between the West and the Muslim world, his intention to strive for a world without nuclear weapons, as he said in Prague in march, peace process in the middle west and more. But I agree that they made a mistake - I think to understand however that the idea was to strengthen his back for things to come. But such prices should be given for accomplishments more than intentions, although I do not agree that he accomplished nothing.
Unfortunately Obama is somewhat a tragic figure until now. He has some bad luck, a bad situation (in which Cain/Palin wouldn't have done an inch better in my opinion) and he has a hatred faction against him that will do everything do sabotate him and will rejoice everytime something doesnt work out. I do however believe that he has the potential to be a truly great president - and he has obviously some dam good willpower and strength in him - he has shown that on many occasions already. It's sad he took presidency of a country that just crashed into the biggest economic desaster since the great depression. I fear this might sabotate his presidency, visions and intentions to a much greater degree than we all know at this moment. On the other side I am convinced that Cain/Palin - with the exact same problems - would have done their share of mistakes, and maybe it would have been worse. (remember Cain's total lack of understanding just days after the crash?) Except of course for healthcare, which they wouldn't have touched even with a biohazard suit on. In some ways Obama has shown a lot of guts to stick to his plans, despite the whole desaster around him - for which others than him where responsible, and yes, a lot of reps too. And a good prez needs guts - he wasn't a sissy so far. I hope the situation turns into something more favorable for him, and wish him also - plain and simple - just some more luck.

@Maskrider: My description of the "northern european intellectuals" was actually ment to be a bit sarcastic. I wanted to express between the lines that they live also in an ivory tower.

[MaskRider]

people today are still trying to sabotage anything that even smells of Bush Jr...

Well Panther considering the fact that we are still living with the disaster of the Bush financial market melt down and two quagmire wars of absolutely no redeeming value- generaled by generals appointed by Bush- I don't see how we, all of us, can avoid still being engaged in trying to "sabotage" Bush Jrs' policies- if by sabotage you mean "fix".

We'll be at it for decades.

Don't get me wrong though. The Dems and Obama aren't showing us anything new.

Blowing aside all of the hot air and smoke from Hannity, Rush and Beck, everything that has happened policy wise since Obama took office has been ostensibly to fix the messes left behind by Bush. Health care reform is still so much pie in the sky- hasn't happened yet. Might not happen. Obama really hasn't initiated a single thing that has passed into policy.

Sorry for kinda butting in here.

[MaskRider]

You'll get no argument from me that awarding Obama the Nobel Peace Prize has finally exposed the Nobel Peace Prize and the Nobel Peace Prize Committee for the shams that they are.

The nominees are supposed to be nominated for work they have accomplished in the year prior to their nomination. There is no way to justify giving it to Obama. But the Pirze and the process have been exposed for frauds- so who care who gets it. Its become more of an embarrassment than an honor.

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

Well Panther considering the fact that we are are still living with the disaster of the Bush financial market melt down and two quagmire wars of absolutely no redeeming value- generaled by generals appointed by Bush- I don't see how we, all of us, can avoid still being engaged in trying to "sabotage" Bush Jrs' policies- if by sabotage you mean "fix".


Mask Rider...
All I'm doing is pointing out facts - and the facts are that the hate & conspiracy that Obama has seen aren't even in the same league as that of Bush Jr.....

Whether or agree/side with Bush Jr. or Obama is a different discussion....

[MaskRider]

Oh, I totally agree with you- sort of.

The hate & conspiracy that Obama has seen aren't even in the same league as that of Bush Jr.

Its much worse for Obama.

And he hasn't even done anything except get elected. That fact is still sticking in most of these tea partyers craws. They just can't handle it. Never in their worst nightmare did they think it would happen. Its not their Daddy's America anymore and they just can't deal with it.

At best I think a lot of the hatred directed at Obama is pent up frustration and anger that the right is projecting from Bush onto Obama. At worst I think it is boiling up from someplace else.

The hatred directed at Obama is way out of proportion to anything he has "earned". Not a single problem we are dealing with today had its origin on Obama's watch. He hasn't done or accomplished anything.

Bush ducked out before the tomatoes, tar and feathers started flying.

I still say that no one is trying to sabotage Bush policies- they are just trying to fix them.

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

Its much worse for Obama.


I have to disagree....
Bush Jr. has the entire globe against him - Obama doesn't....

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

The hatred directed at Obama is way out of proportion to anything he has "earned". Not a single problem we are dealing with today had its origin on Obama's watch.

I do agree with you here though....

[MaskRider]

I have to disagree....
Bush Jr. has the entire globe against him - Obama doesn't....


Well, Bush and his Neo-Con puppet masters decided to take on the entire globe.:shark:

[RickN]

While none of it started on Obama's watch, a very large portion of the problems can be traced back to policies pushed by the Dems who now control congress and have for going on three years.

The fact that Obama is still pushing those same policies and then some is the reason so many people are against him, well that and the fact he is totally unqualified for the office.

As for the Tea Party being pissed about him getting elected, yes that is true but not for the reason you seem to be tap dancing around, It is because we have looked at his record ( what there is of it ) and looked at what he has pushed since getting elected, and want no part of it.

Bush and the more liberal wing of the Republican party made several huge mistakes and instead of trying to fix them, Obama and cronies are pushing policies that will make them worse.

And Chris you can dream of nationalized health care all you want, a majority of the country does not want it and will keep fighting to prevent it.

[MaskRider]

BS. They didn't care about Bush's abysmal record. Why would they care about Obama's? He doesn't even have one. Nothing Obama has ever done has influenced anything of any importance in any significant way.

So, Obama is unqualified??? I suppose that the implied reverse of that statement is that Bush's team was qualified? Well, maybe you are right. With qualified guys like those who needs unqualified guys! :D

Does it occur to you Rick that the consequences of what you are pleased to call Bush's "mistakes" couldn't have been any worse if every single thing you fear from Obama had happened in the first place?

If the "mistakes' had happened on Obama's watch instead of Bush's you be calling them a vast left wing commie conspiracy purposely planned to destroy the country and our way of life. :D

Wake up Rick. Bush and his cronies trained wrecked the country all by themselves.

WRTUniversal Health care, I don't dream of it at all. I think it would be a good thing if done right but have no dog in the hunt at all- well that isn't quite true. I've got health care but wouldn't mind at seeing my health insurance company taken down a notch or two.

[Willy]

Wake up Rick. Bush and his cronies trained wrecked the country all by themselves.


And the Dems are pushing the wreckage off a tall cliff. Let's save what we can or would you rather piss it all away while fussing about someone who isn't even in power anymore?

[RickN]

BS. They didn't care about Bush's abysmal record. Why would they care about Obama's? He doesn't even have one. Nothing Obama has ever done has influenced anything of any importance in any significant way.

So, Obama is unqualified??? I suppose that the implied reverse of that statement is that Bush's team was qualified? Well, maybe you are right. With qualified guys like those who needs unqualified guys! :D

Does it occur to you Rick that the consequences of what you are pleased to call Bush's "mistakes" couldn't have been any worse if every single thing you fear from Obama had happened in the first place?

If the "mistakes' had happened on Obama's watch instead of Bush's you be calling them a vast left wing commie conspiracy purposely planned to destroy the country and our way of life. :D

Wake up Rick. Bush and his cronies trained wrecked the country all by themselves.

WRTUniversal Health care, I don't dream of it at all. I think it would be a good thing if done right but have no dog in the hunt at all- well that isn't quite true. I've got health care but wouldn't mind at seeing my health insurance company taken down a notch or two.

That is a load of crap and you know. As I have pointed out several times the Tea Party movement got it's start before TARP was ever signed and has several ties to the Minute Man project. In other words we were pissed at a lot of what was going on during the Bush years.

You are just so blinded by your hatred of Bush that you can not see that a lot of the rest of us supported SOME of what he did but not all, and just because we did not like TARPs and some other things is no reason to make things worse with the crap Dear Leader and his cronies are trying.

As for Bush and the Republicans train wrecking the country all by themselves, again BS!!!! They had plenty of help from the Dems and a whole lot of the problems go back decades and can and should be laid at the feet of both parties in congress and several former Presidents.

You should wake up and see that both parties have screwed the pooch for many decades but that socializing a large part of the economy as Obama has admitted he wants to do several times, is not going to fix anything.

[RickN]

Every single prize given has political aspects. You think the Oscar is any different? Think again. That doesn't make all the prizes given worthless neither does it mean all who got it didn't really deserve it. It's human and therefor not perfect, but it is not worthless.

Correction, most awards given are political and are therefore worthless. There are a few awards given for doing something of merit and only those are worth anything at all to my mind.

And yes the Oscar is worthless too. If I and most people I know, hear a film has won an Oscar, we know it is probably not worth seeing.

[MaskRider]

You should wake up and see that both parties have screwed the pooch for many decades but that socializing a large part of the economy as Obama has admitted he wants to do several times, is not going to fix anything.

Crap, BS and more Crap!!! LOL!

Just kidding!

You are right. It has taken both of these worthless parties working hand in glove to get us where we are today.

I just think that the amount of vitriolic anger being directed at Obama is all out of proportion, astronomically out of proportion, to any economic pooch screwing he could reasonably be held accountable for- particularly when compared to economic pooches Bush allowed and enthusiastically encouraged to be screwed during his 8 year watch.

But let me ask you: have we not already socialized the investment banking industry part of the economy- at least their cost side (the only side side that matters)? The answer is "yes" we have.

And has that chunk of socialization not already cost and will it not continue to cost taxpayers a far larger chunk of change accruing to a way smaller chunk of the population- a handful of rich elites- than the chunk of socialization it will take to bring benefits to everyone thru universal- semi socialized health care?

Whats the problem?

Big chunk of change benefiting a handful of rich elites = no protests. Much smaller chunk of change benefiting everyone = hysterical protests.

Please splain.

Some things need to be socialized. The loss side of the rich elite's investment portfolios is not one of them.

[RickN]

Chris nothing needs to be socialized including the bankers. As I have posted before, if they fail, they fail. It would hurt for a short while then someone else would take their place, hopefully with better sense. That is why I did not support the bank bailouts, car bailouts, or any other bailouts.

Now I admit when they were first talking about government backed short term loans to the banks I did not have a real problem with it, but when they basically changed it to handouts it lost my support even if they were still calling it loans.

As for what Obama wants to do, the excess spending of the Republicans helped get this country into the trouble it is in now, do you really think trillions more in government spending is going to solve the problems or like the Tea Party groups think it will just add to them.

I, and a huge number of other people think it Obama and his cronies will drive even more businesses overseas, while raising taxes, increasing illegal immigrants, and increasing unemployment. Do you think that will help anything? I do not.

[Snuffy]

The O "man" has done nothing deserving of this.

Not in less than two months time. I'm sorry.

[MaskRider]

Chris nothing needs to be socialized including the bankers. As I have posted before, if they fail, they fail. It would hurt for a short while then someone else would take their place, hopefully with better sense. That is why I did not support the bank bailouts, car bailouts, or any other bailouts.

Now I admit when they were first talking about government backed short term loans to the banks I did not have a real problem with it, but when they basically changed it to handouts it lost my support even if they were still calling it loans.

As for what Obama wants to do, the excess spending of the Republicans helped get this country into the trouble it is in now, do you really think trillions more in government spending is going to solve the problems or like the Tea Party groups think it will just add to them.

I, and a huge number of other people think it Obama and his cronies will drive even more businesses overseas, while raising taxes, increasing illegal immigrants, and increasing unemployment. Do you think that will help anything? I do not.

We have socialized law enforcement, socialized interstate transportation and infrastructure, socialized water delivery and sewage, socialized public education- all sorts of socialized and semi socialized public goods and services- not to mention a fairly hefty chunk of socialized medical and health care.

Sorry Rick. This brew hah hah about semi-socializing medical care- which is already semi socialized- is being fanned and financed by huge monopolistic health insurance conglomerates looking out for their own greedy self interests. Understandable- but not commendable.

[Toastmaker]

Jesus, maskrider ! Do you understand what is meant by "socialized medicine" in the context of our current government's attempts at uber-control ??

Socialized law enforcement ?? WTF are you talking about? Just because something isn't built or provided from some farmers barn and sold on the street out of the back of a pick-up, doesn't mean its a "socialized" process.

Socialization of health care in America simply means the federal government takes over control of distribution, pricing, diagnostic decision-making and approvals for treatment and prioritization of treatment schedules. This means that many personal decisions about one's health-care has now been taken away from the patient and will be made by federal bureaucrats. THAT'S SOCIALIZATION.

It ain't what we want. It ain't what we need. It is, by any definition of the word, "socialization" of our health care processes.

I suppose the crux of our disagreement here is your loathing of the free market capitalism, which I support like the greatest thing since seedless watermellon !


:thumbs up:

[MaskRider]

It ain't what we want. It ain't what we need. It is, by any definition of the word, "socialization" of our health care processes.

Why Toast? because Hannity, Rush and Beck said so??

You are the one who is clueless about what socialized means.

Every service that is manged from within the confines of a government office building housing government paid and regulated bureaucrats/employees is a SOCIALIZED public service.

My point is that many things that are socialized actually work just fine.

If you disagree suppose you define for me what makes something socialized in your book and we'll hash it out from there. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

[Toastmaker]

We are simply heading for a hair-splitting contest on the contextual definition of "socialized". You are using a very finely pointed version of the term, ie; socialized law enforcement (as opposed to what - the Lone Ranger & Tonto?).

I am using a broader understanding of it, as in; a federal government (ANY federal gov.) appropriating control and operations of that which used to be in the private sector (particularly in a democratic society).

Actually - I think you know very well what we mean when we rail against "socialized medicine". You're just practicing being obtuse, yes ?




:beach3:

[Snuffy]

Less government intervention in my life ... the better.

Anything other than what the founding fathers intended for government is too much government, Government run anything is too much government.

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

It's debateable that the U.S. military health care system (Tri-Care) is a form of socialized medicine.....

[CybrSlydr]

It's debateable that the U.S. military health care system (Tri-Care) is a form of socialized medicine.....

But the Military isn't a democracy. :) Does that make it ok?

Or does the mindset extend from the military into the health care as it's administered by military personnel?

[Panthera Pardus Nigresco]

But the Military isn't a democracy. :) Does that make it ok?


I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong....All I'm saying is that you could make an arguable case stating that Tri-Care is a form of socialized medicine...

[MaskRider]

All I'm saying is that you could make an arguable case stating that Tri-Care is a form of socialized medicine...

It is Panther. You are absolutely right. All of the health care extended to military families is socialized medicine. I grew up as a dependent in a military family and I have to say that the health care I received was always top notch- as far as I could tell. Same goes for the heath care I recieved when I was serving in the military.

Point being of course that socialized public services- in this case health care- can and do work.

[Blue Devil]

It's debateable that the U.S. military health care system (Tri-Care) is a form of socialized medicine.....

Tri-care is an employer provided service perk in lieu of salary.

[MaskRider]

You're just practicing being obstuse, yes ?:beach3:

LOL! Practice? I don't need no stinkin' practice. :D

[RickN]

Chris, something you should know so that you might better understand the debate, the insurance companies ARE BACKING OBAMACARE. They are doing this because until the public option forces them out, they will make a killing in the short term. They only bucked today because not everyone will be forced to buy insurance.

The plan is simple, make billions for a decade or two until the public option starts cutting into their profits, then declare bankruptcy leaving everyone stuck with the government plan. They are being used as the fall guy but really do not care as long as they make a profit then can get out with a ton of money.

Do a little research for yourself and you will find out I am right.