Renegade Government at it again...

[Blue Devil]

Bill would give president emergency control of Internet (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10320096-38.html)


Internet companies and civil liberties groups were alarmed this spring when a U.S. Senate bill proposed handing the White House the power to disconnect private-sector computers from the Internet.

They're not much happier about a revised version that aides to Sen. Jay Rockefeller, a West Virginia Democrat, have spent months drafting behind closed doors. CNET News has obtained a copy of the 55-page draft (excerpt), which still appears to permit the president to seize temporary control of private-sector networks during a so-called cybersecurity emergency.

The new version would allow the president to "declare a cybersecurity emergency" relating to "non-governmental" computer networks and do what's necessary to respond to the threat. Other sections of the proposal include a federal certification program for "cybersecurity professionals," and a requirement that certain computer systems and networks in the private sector be managed by people who have been awarded that license....

Renegades, ...and Orange Jump-Suite Qualified...

[Toastmaker]

Oh, no ****ing way ! Anybody supporting such a bill could never weasel out of accusations of communistic leanings.

This kind of crap - if passed- could spark sporatic violence against this government.

[Snuffy]

You know ... when George wanted to do that the demmies had a **** fit.
Now that their boy wants to do it ... its okay ..

:hunter:

[Toastmaker]

When did the Bush administration propose such a thing ??

[Snuffy]

Shortly after 9/11 they wanted it in the security act of the time so they could track terrorist ... the demmies voted it out ...

[6s.]

when George wanted to do that the demmies had a **** fit.
Now that their boy wants to do it ... its okay ..Here's a little exercise which helps assess the value of a statement:

When George wanted to do that ... it was okay ..
Now that Barack wants to do it the reps have a **** fit.

If you can reverse an argument, it means the initial statement has poor relevance.

Glad I can help ;)

[Toastmaker]

Hey ! Where you been hiding ??

[6s.]

Hi Toastmaker, howdy ?

Got a rather long assignment auditing a quite large company, then had well deserved holidays.

Quite surprised to see how this place has changed in only a few months. Seems all the "conservatives" have moved further right (wonder what "further right" means for some members :D) and that the "moderates" are now called "liberals" - or simply gone. Hmm.

[CybrSlydr]

Hi Toastmaker, howdy ?

Got a rather long assignment auditing a quite large company, then had well deserved holidays.

Quite surprised to see how this place has changed in only a few months. Seems all the "conservatives" have moved further right (wonder what "further right" means for some members :D) and that the "moderates" are now called "liberals" - or simply gone. Hmm.

Tell me about it....

[6s.]

... Obama's fault... ;)

[CybrSlydr]

lmao

If only it were that simple. :)

[Snuffy]

Here's a little exercise which helps assess the value of a statement:

When George wanted to do that ... it was okay ..
Now that Barack wants to do it the reps have a **** fit.

If you can reverse an argument, it means the initial statement has poor relevance.

Glad I can help ;)

Actually nothing could be further from the truth ... I never said it was okay and that I was in favor of Bush doing it ... I'm against any one that infringes on my rights.

Problem is that Bush wanted to do it for national security purposes ... Obama wants to do it to spy and control the people of the U.S. ... big difference between the two purposes, either way.

[bzhyoyo]

there is a lot of talk about "cybersecurity" in the article. And if you recall the war between Georgia and Russia, the internet was used as a weapon by the Russians to disturb and even stop strategic resources such as electricity and water supply whose controls were linked to the internet.
So to summarize: the internet will be a weapon in future conflicts.
But nahhh, it must be because Obama is the new Stalin of course!

Either way, this draft seems to be very vague and redundant. Haven't you got some sort of law allowing the government to take over large parts of the private sector in case of war?


Quite surprised to see how this place has changed in only a few months. Seems all the "conservatives" have moved further right (wonder what "further right" means for some members :D) and that the "moderates" are now called "liberals" - or simply gone. Hmm.
yup, only the stubborn ones like me are staying! :D

[Toastmaker]

The War Powers Act provides for governmental usage, control and manipulation of many things and resources - but only in times of TRUE national emergencies. Lesser emergencies allow for many fewer options.

Americans do not object to this contingency planning but will object fiercely if this administration tries to pull a fast one with regard to capricious governmental contol over internet access.

It's just that too many initiatives and proposals by this administration are looking a lot like the foundations of a socialistic Hyper-controlling federal apparatus. Americans are not used to this form of government. Americans do not want this form of government.

I, for one, do not now believe that these things are comming together from this administration simply by "coincidence". This President has stated publically that he supports the percieved "equalities" of a socialistic system and he supports a "redistribution" of the wealth" (regardless who created it).

I take him at his word that these are his intentions. Him, his ideas and his lock-step facilitators are edging ever closer to becomming an enemy of the people in this country.

". . . all enemies, foreign and domestic. . ." is not a joke to many of us.

[Blue Devil]

there is a lot of talk about "cybersecurity" in the article. And if you recall the war between Georgia and Russia, the internet was used as a weapon by the Russians to disturb and even stop strategic resources such as electricity and water supply whose controls were linked to the internet.
So to summarize: the internet will be a weapon in future conflicts.

So we should stop an eight-lane highway so my dick won't get run over if I decide to take a leak by the side of the road...?

...or should I just take a few steps back onto the shoulder, ...on the other side of my truck where it's safe.

If you want safe Power grids, ...harden them.


Why don't they spend a few million dollars (for a $250 thousand dollar job) and run a security risk assessment on all the vulnerable infrastructures and implement security protocol there, ...where the threat lies...?

You think the Financial community doesn't do this...?

This proposed legislation is the same kind of argument as, "we need to take all your guns away, ...for my own safety".

If the Government wants to confiscate my Lap-top at the Airport (or any other place), ...scan and copy anything on it they want, ...and then decide whether or not to even return it...?

...and then seize my primary Communication and Information conduit with the rest of my Country, ...at the Government's discretion, ...along with Talk-Radio...? (they can have TV, ...nothing left there but Odinga whore Teletubbies anyway)

...Without having probable cause, ...and a court order issued by a Federal Judge...?


They better try to take my guns away first...

(and I would expect the Military to beat me to it...)


It's this kind of thinking that supports the theory that we, ...as a Nation, ... should not involve ourselves in foreign conflicts, ...and avoid foreign entanglements.

Nations that were given their freedom (again and again), ...or, worse yet, ...had their freedom taken by those Nations that had it given to them...

...lack the will or capacity to understand what it takes to secure and maintain freedom, ...both foreign and domestic.

You only know how to start trouble, ...then cry for help.

If Europe would have solved it's OWN problems in the First War, ...there would not have been a Second one...

...and Europe would be a German Nation, ...until it succeeded in becoming something else.

Want to be France...?

...Prove it.


Don't lecture WE about Our Freedom, ...we have our hands full with our own Domestic enemies, ...while we still continue to provide for and protect a resentful free world.

Earn it yourself, ...then talk.



But nahhh, it must be because Obama is the new Stalin of course!
Of course not...

...Stalin had a mustache. (same political philosophy though...)

[bzhyoyo]

Just for the record, I'm not in favour of this bill but it's actually so vaguely described in the article that it's hard to know what's really in it.

Now to the specifics...


If the Government wants to confiscate my Lap-top at the Airport (or any other place), ...scan and copy anything on it they want, ...and then decide whether or not to even return it...?


a U.S. Senate bill proposed handing the White House the power to disconnect private-sector computers from the Internet.

Did you really read the article you posted a link to???


Don't lecture WE about Our Freedom, ...we have our hands full with our own Domestic enemies, ...while we still continue to provide for and protect a resentful free world.

Whooaaa, hold on to your horses tough guy! It was not a lecture, just my opinion. Not a thick skin enough to handle a bit of contradiction on an internet forum?
What are you waiting from this forum anyway? Seem some of you just want a choir of people echoeing their own opinions when they start a thread. Sorry, but that's not going to happen all the time, you'd better get used to it.

[Skarbo]

... Obama's fault... ;)

Nope.....You forget the mantra......
It's all Bush's fault.....:faintthud:

[Blue Devil]

...Now to the specifics...

Did you really read the article you posted a link to???

Yes, ...I did.

I also know the history of the bill, ...and what the Libs went ape-**** over the last time when Bush tried to ram it through, ...seizure/inspection/duplication/confiscation of computers at Airports...

...and they took it out.

Odinga just announced that he will push for the inclusion of all of the original Bush security measures...


There is nothing about this current administration that is not crafted to separate WE from our Freedom, Liberty, and Property.

They are Saul Alinsky Radical Socialists and Fascists, ...and are destroying our economy and disregarding our Constitution.

It is our job to protect our Nation and secure and enforce our Constitution from these domestic enemies...

We have started with public debate and demonstration, ...then we will Vote...

...and then we will see.

More may be required.


We will not ask for your help (thanks for the Revolutionary War).

America is about to slap the crap out of these people, ...and then real reform will begin.

I appreciate comments, concerns, and opinions...

but this is not an academic discussion topic.

I do not take it lightly.


Now...

Do you want to chat about the alternate Socio-political realities of translational government while the Muslims are taking over your country, ...and are in the process of inserting Sharia Law as your National governance...?

[bzhyoyo]

Do you want to chat about the alternate Socio-political realities of translational government while the Muslims are taking over your country, ...and are in the process of inserting Sharia Law as your National governance...?

if you can provide any example for this bull****, be my guest.

[6s.]

I second that. And I DEMAND facts.
Oooooooow yes I do ;)

[USCG76]

Well this a great debate from all sides. I'll go sleuthing the UK/France goverment. Might be a few Days as your respective counties are a real PIA in Transparency compared to the US and Canada.

[Blue Devil]

if you can provide any example for this bull****, be my guest.

Bull****...?

Hmmmm, ...kind of a 'thin-skinned' response for an academic discussion on socio-political possibilities...

...or is it a little closer to home...?

Sharia Europe (http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia-europe.html)


Sharia law entered Europe after WWII when the weakened European nations retracted from their colonies, bringing to Europe their former colonial subjects as both refugees and cheap labor from such Muslim nations as Pakistan (UK), Turkey (Germany) and Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia (France).

Initially, Sharia law was applied discretely within the small Muslim communities of Europe. But after two generations of high birth rate and immigration, those communities have grown to where the Sharia law now challenges the Judeo-Christian foundations of their host European nations....

...In France, home to an estimated 14 million Muslims, including 9 million illegal immigrants, the government no longer controls the banlieus, the densely-populated, predominantly Muslim ghettos that encircle most major French cities.

It is still legal in France to distribute Bibles and tracts but doing so in the banlieus, where the French police seldom enter, invites mob violence, and even the legality is expected to end by 2040 when France is projected to become a majority-Muslim nation (The Netherlands will become Western Europe's first majority-Muslim nation by 2015)....

Sucks, ...huh...?

We have the same **** starting over here.

I hope y'all do better with your Muslims, ...than you did with your Socialists. (...and the Germans, ...twice)

Just kidding.

Muslim is a Global problem, ...WE will probably have to pass a Constitutional Amendment to address and ban Sharia Law here in the U.S....

...Before we turn into France.

More kidding. (WE say that about Socialism now)


Outside of confirming my status as a(n) "___________" (fill-in the blank)

I hope that some semblance of empathy has found its way across the pond.

[RickN]

I for one will freely admit that Obama and his cronies have pushed me more to the right then I ever thought possible.

While I fully expected that they would ruin this country and have said so many times, I never expected them to try and move so far to the left so fast. It has me donating money to further right candidates and organizations then ever before, attending protest, and planning on working to help right wing candidates.

That is on top of general preparing my family and business for things to really go down the crapper as far as the economy and living conditions in this country.

[Lucky Dog]

I for one will freely admit that Obama and his cronies have pushed me more to the right then I ever thought possible.

While I fully expected that they would ruin this country and have said so many times, I never expected them to try and move so far to the left so fast. It has me donating money to further right candidates and organizations then ever before, attending protest, and planning on working to help right wing candidates.

That is on top of general preparing my family and business for things to really go down the crapper as far as the economy and living conditions in this country.

Things have shifted so far left......there is very little "right-wing" any more.
What used to be considered "right" is now slightly left of center.
If JFK and his policies were around today........he'd be considered slightly "right" of center.

[bzhyoyo]

Blue Devil, you're kidding indeed. The source of your info is good for chuckles but not much else, I'm afraid. Try another one, will you? Tip: don't take everything you can read on the internet for granted.
Just so that other forumers understand how much the page Blue Devil quoted is ridiculous:
there is an estimated 4 million muslims in France. No precise statistics because we don't categorize people according to their ethnicity, like in the US. Most estimates give a 5 or 6 million figure but the latest studies think now that they're a bit overestimated, so the latest figures is about 4 million.
There are about 60 million people in France. And France will become a majority-Muslim nation by 2040?
Maths... it sucks, eh?

[von Bek]

Things have shifted so far left......there is very little "right-wing" any more.

What you perceive as a shift to the left is only a tiny step back towards the centre from the extreme right. There is a long way to go before the US embraces anything that might be regarded as 'left'.

Sadly, your own weltanschauung is so distorted that you really believe you're witnessing a socialist uprising and nothing could be further from the truth. What is happening is that your new government is trying very hard to rehabilitate the US in the International community. Views like yours are the reason why this is unlikely to succeed.

You have no idea how extremely insane you look to the rest of the world.

[RickN]

What you perceive as a shift to the left is only a tiny step back towards the centre from the extreme right. There is a long way to go before the US embraces anything that might be regarded as 'left'.

Sadly, your own weltanschauung is so distorted that you really believe you're witnessing a socialist uprising and nothing could be further from the truth. What is happening is that your new government is trying very hard to rehabilitate the US in the International community. Views like yours are the reason why this is unlikely to succeed.

You have no idea how extremely insane you look to the rest of the world.

Wrong VB. While the left tried to paint Bush as extreme right, nothing could be further from the truth. Now by Euro standards he may have been, but by US standards he was center and maybe even a little left of center.

By US standards Obama and his cronies are extreme left and a whole lot of the US citizens are catching on to it which is why his policies are so unpopular and his poll numbers are even lower then Bush's were at this same point in his term.

And when you say "rehabilitate the US in the International community" you mean bend us to your whims, but the US is not a clone of Europe and most Americans do not want us to be. Also Europe is not the rest of the world and you look extremely insane to us too.

[Toastmaker]

"Rehabilitate ourselves in the international community" ??? Are you kidding me, you mean like beg forgiveness and promise to be better ??

You clearly have no idea what this country actually does for the "international community". America is one of, if not the, most generous nations on the planet yet you and your kind see fit to denigrate and chastize us at every turn as if we owe you some enormous apology, as we dish out billiions in foreign aid and support.

There are few things more offensive than an arrogant ingrate and Europe, as has been seen many times, plays that role like a pro.

[Snuffy]

I don't expect anyone who hasn't lived the American experience, (for longer than a 2 week holiday,) before this debacle started, to understand anything thats going on in this country.

Hell I don't expect them to understand anything at all, truth be known, contrary to all their hype and hot air about how much they claim they know ... (which brings us to the question, where did they get their information from?) Not that I care to know.

To be certain things are dire in this country. And its not a laughing matter. :unhappy:

[6s.]

Blue Devil, your prop- your facts are extremely disturbing.

I'll ask you a favour: please dig out for me the origin of these statistics and the operating process used to obtain these statistics since, as Bzhyoyo mentioned above, ethnic and religious statistics are forbidden by law in France.

It may also interest you to know that arguments similar to yours above are frequently used by french political groups such as Le Pen's Front National (1 (http://www.frontnational.com/communique_detail.php?id=1695); 2 (http://www.eric-dillies.fr/archive/2009/01/29/l-application-de-la-charia-en-france.html)) and some other movements like the MNR (http://www.mnr13.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102:le-fn-renonce-a-defendre-les-valeurs-europeennes-face-a-la-charia&catid=35:communiques-nationaux&Itemid=56), so far right they are usually referred to as "neo-nazis" - and sometimes openly claim being so (http://www.france-politique.fr/annuaire-extreme-droite.htm). Thank you Godwin ;)

Needless to say you have no relations whatsoever with such asses.

According to latest estimates by demographs within the frame of scientific studies, muslims are less than 4 millions in France (source (http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/religion/les-vrais-chiffres_494290.html)), i.e. around 6% of french population. Paris area alone counts 3 times as many people. Just to think that Parisians may impose their religious laws to the rest of us, I am already trembling.

[Nausicaa]

What to expect from a "Billion Bibles for the World" website? That sentence made me also chuckle: "The Netherlands will become Western Europe's first majority-Muslim nation by 2015" WTF?...:emot-angel:
That is neo fascist propaganda at it's best. It's probably also quoted over at Stormfront.org, hehe.

[Nausicaa]

"Rehabilitate ourselves in the international community" ???

Well yes. You are the only ones not having decent healthcare, oops sorry, together with Somalia. ;)




You clearly have no idea what this country actually does for the "international community". America is one of, if not the, most generous nations on the planet yet you and your kind see fit to denigrate and chastize us at every turn as if we owe you some enormous apology, as we dish out billiions in foreign aid and support.

Toast we have been there already. That is complete BS. American foreign politics since 1945 are a epic tale of hardcore strategic and economic interest, and without gloves. Iran, Argentina, South America, Cuba, Phillipines and so on and on. Overthrowing democratic governments, financing dictators, financing terrorists, hindering democratic development when it suited you, political assassinations, putting whole countries into bloodshed, it's all on the list. You might have that idea of the good superpower, but it's really not how you are perceived by 60% of the globe. We have discussed all that before.

[Nausicaa]

as we dish out billiions in foreign aid and support

I think that is a pretty wild myth too. I have once read a statistic about the real comparaison of numbers concerning foreign aid, but I don't have it at hand. I will try to find it again.

[6s.]

Nausicaa, thanks for the stormfront.org (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/) hint.

Here's one of the result I found with the search word "islam": http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=318738&highlight=islam. 131 pages of facts, yum-yum.

[Nausicaa]

One of the worst places on the internet, happy I could be of service, hehe.
I know one or two here that could find a new home there.
:emot-angel:

[Toastmaker]

Nausicaa, I cannot honestly think of a single member here that would feel at home at Stormfront.org.

I would happily support this country cutting foreign aid by 75%. I would support pulling every single American military member out of a number of resentful countries (eg; Germany, S.Korea, Italy, Most of the Middle East and Pacific Rim). I would support a change towards avoiding efforts to jam democracy down the throats of those incapable of benefiting from it.

America's history clearly shows honorable intent to help and to oppose the global spread of Communism/Socialism/Fascism. Yes, we have had to support from time to time the lesser of two evils (dictators) for a time as a strategic tactic based on the realities of the world at those moments.

Clearly, Americans (and by extension - our foreign policies) are fervently anti-socialistic/communistic but I realize these arguements fall on deaf ears of those who harbor an afinity for such regimens.

Ergo, our basic differences of political opinions.

[6s.]

I cannot honestly think of a single member here that would feel at home at Stormfront.org.It may be true that cats are not good at seeing colors :D

[Skarbo]

According to latest estimates by demographs within the frame of scientific studies, muslims are less than 4 millions in France (source (http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/religion/les-vrais-chiffres_494290.html)
"Latests estimates" is 2003 ?
Interesting.........

[Toastmaker]

It may be true that cats are not good at seeing colors :D




It is certainly true that they are smarter than you think they are. . .


:beach3:

[Skarbo]

It is certainly true that they are smarter than you think they are. . .


:beach3:

:thumbs up: :laugh:

Good answer Toast ....

[bzhyoyo]

"Latests estimates" is 2003 ?
Interesting.........

so what? Let's say they are 5 or even 6 million. It's still a far cry from being enough to become a majority in France.
If your question is about why there are no more recent estimates, the answer is already given in the thread. Reread my posts and those by 6s.

[USCG76]

France like most of Europe seems to very unorganized in Statistics and stats keeping when tracking its population. Perhaps your country would know the real stats if they could do simple scientific sampling tables.

[6s.]

Whaddya expect, Skarbo? Muslim population to grow from 4 to 14 millions in 6 years? Gimme a break: an annual growth rate of 2% for a human population is a VERY high figure. Do the maths yourself: 3.7 millions in 2003, 2% annual growth for 6 years = +/- 4 millions today. Happy?

The question remains: how does it compare to the figures produces by Blue Devil?

As to his "9 millions of illegal immigrants", the annual number of immigrants from outside the EEC is somewhere around 130.000. How many years does it take to reach 9 millions? The answer is: about 69 years :rolleyes:

Oh yes the French are not well organized...

[6s.]

France like most of Europe seems to very unorganized in Statistics and stats keeping when tracking its population. Perhaps your country would know the real stats if they could do simple scientific sampling tables.Let's talk about arrogance ;)

Your statement is a crock of **** - at least regarding France: public census used to be performed every 5 year until 2004, every year since. More about methodology here (http://www.insee.fr/fr/methodes/default.asp?page=sources/ope-rp.htm).

Probably your poor understanding of local dialects prevented you from finding appropriate information. Here (http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/ipweb/ip1098/ip1098.pdf)'s some food for your thoughts about immigration in France. Yes, it is in French. You might find something in english with keyword "INSEE".

[Nausicaa]

Oh I love myth busting :D

[Skarbo]

so what? Let's say they are 5 or even 6 million. .
Come on dude.....numbers are facts.....none of this "let's say" stuff...

I DID read every post...It seems to me that you guys are just guessing...
That why I noticed the last link was for 2004-5.......
It went to 5+million 4 years ago......maybe ....my French is piss poor
What is it NOW????

Keep posting 6 ...your good at making me laugh......I need all the humor I can get living in a "inferior" country...
I guess now I'm a "right wing extremist *sigh*

[bzhyoyo]

my English is that bad or you make no effort to understand the point?

[Skarbo]

my English is that bad or you make no effort to understand the point?

I REALLY do understand your point bud.......really I do...
But since I cannot read a word of your link......

Can you understand mine??

Statistics and numbers do not always line up..........

[6s.]

Skarbo, Skarbo, Skarbo...

Dunno about you, but in the english I've learnt, 5 millions IMMIGRANTS does not equate to 5 millions MUSLIMS. Among those immigrants, there are (were) people from the EEC, the USA (probably not muslims)... AND people from northern Africa and Africa (mainly Muslims). See? Read (translate) the links I've provided, it's all in there.

You're not telling me that facts in a language other than yours become "let's say", are you?

Anyway, I'm glad if I make you laugh. I wish it were true the other way round: somehow you remind me of my ex-wife. You could explain her 2+2=4 in a million different ways, if she had decided it was 2+2=3, she would look at you as if you were retarded. She wonders why everything goes wrong around her :D

[Toastmaker]

Well, 6, at least you had the presence of mind to make her an "ex".

Congratulations on a job well done !!

[USCG76]

Ok Thanks to a friend in the UK here is what he led me to as of 2004. Also my friend says you can that EEC and shove it far up Mainland Europe's ass. He says it ruins National Pride and history, which is killing the UK.

Total population: 62.3 million

Muslim population: Five to six million (8-9.6%)

Background: The French Muslim population is the largest in western Europe. About 70% have their heritage in former north African colonies of Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. France favours integration and many Muslims are citizens. Nevertheless, the growth of the community has challenged the French ideal of strict separation of religion and public life. There has been criticism that Muslims face high unemployment and often live in poor suburbs. A ban on religious symbols in public schools provoked a major national row as it was widely regarded as being a ban on the Islamic headscarf. Late 2005 saw widespread and prolonged rioting among mainly immigrant communities across France.

Your Sources: Total population - National Institute for Statistics and Economic Studies, 2004 figures; Muslim population - French government estimate.

And im still trolling thru the French goverment site. Bluedevil were you counting only France or France and its Departments and Dependencies, Territories? Last resort is going thru that pie hole UN.

[Nausicaa]

Ok Thanks to a friend in the UK here is what he led me to as of 2004. Also my friend says you can that EEC and shove it far up Mainland Europe's ass. He says it ruins National Pride and history, which is killing the UK.

Your friend is a fool. Ask him what Britain is counting to survive on. Taking India with the royal fleet maybe ?

[Snuffy]

Your friend is a fool. ...

And what praytell makes you so certain of this ... especially an individual you may not even know?

I suppose its your far superior intellect .. or is it perhaps, he actually disagrees with your mental perception of the way things are?

Get your head out of your ass Nausica.

:dead:

[Blue Devil]

Blue Devil, your prop- your facts are extremely disturbing.

I'll ask you a favour: please dig out for me the origin of these statistics and the operating process used to obtain these statistics since, as Bzhyoyo mentioned above, ethnic and religious statistics are forbidden by law in France.
Thank you Godwin ;)

Sharia Europe (http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia-europe.html)

How France Has Fallen (http://limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/france-immigration.html)


Muslim immigration has overwhelmed permissive French institutions

France is probably the worst affected of all western nations by immigration, since it is on the brink of losing its European identity to the insistent Muslims increasing in numbers within French borders. As they grow in population, they come to believe they can impose the will of Islam on the French people, who seem rather unconcerned with the transformation.

With a population of five million Muslims, France is holding a tiger by the ears. The threat of violence from radical Islamic elements cannot be far from politicians' minds. Wherever there are large numbers of Arabs, there is crime and violence, particularly against women.

France should be seen as a cautionary tale of immigration run amok, and how quickly things get out of control. Muslim immigration to France is a post-war phenomenon for the most part: just of few decades of high immigration of a group with high fertility has put France in the unenviable position of being the European nation thought most likely to be the first to introduce sharia (Islamic) law.


Sharia law enters France (http://www.homesoverseas.co.uk/news/Sharia_law_enters_France/8971-1002)


7 May 2009

France has overhauled elements of its domestic tax law in a move that will allow the rules of Islamic finance to be followed without attracting tax penalties, therefore viewed by the tax authorities in the same way as their western counterparts.

The term ‘Islamic finance’ pertains to the ways that business and personal financial matters are handled while respecting Sharia law. Sharia forbids gambling and interest and so many of the transactions which are regarded as normal to conventional financial institutions – ranging from mortgages to interest bearing savings accounts to insurance – have to be structured differently and can in the process attract a tax penalty.

One of the first companies to benefit from France’s radical reform to its stance on Islamic banking is Islamic Finance Advisory and Assurance Services (IFAAS), a UK-based consultancy specialising in providing advisory & training services to financial institutions in Sharia compliance.

Managing director of IFAAS, Mohammad Farrukh Raza, says: “France, with its Muslim population and its particularly strong ties to the Arab world, provides a vast opportunity for organisations looking to develop their Islamic Finance offering. In addition to this, France is one of the world’s leading economies and is an attractive place for investment from around the world.”

France has a Muslim population of six to seven million people, the largest in Western Europe.


Google for: Muslim + France + Sharia Law

It is seeping into your Government, ...like Socialism is here.



EDIT: USCG76, ...just a general plug of France proper. (SWAG)

But, ...like counting fleas in a barnyard...

...one's tolerable, ...two is one too many, ...and will leads to Millions.

Best to look at it as an infestation...

[RickN]

Toast, well said in both your post and I noticed one of the Euros brought up healthcare again apparently buying the lefty BS that our system is bad instead of blaming the real culprit which is our lifestyle. To much good food and not enough exercise.

For a second opinion on healthcare,

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

A couple of examples,


Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.

Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.

People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.” ( to be fair many here see need for improvement too )

Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other developed country. Since the mid- 1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past thirty-four years did a scientist living in the United States not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

[USCG76]

From what i see since arriving in Canada, most people here are very concerned over there current health care system. Now when i got in the Northern Territory there is less concern. So Territory and Province operate different and the Canadian Federal system treats each form of goverment different. And im still learning more about the Canadians every day I live up here. Cant wait for the 24 hour darkness to set in and the Northern lights. However most people in Northern Territory have a dislike for Obama and his party.

[6s.]

USCG76, your figures are wrong.

Total french population, verified 2009 INSEE (http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tableau.asp?reg_id=0&ref_id=NATnon02151) figure: 64.3 million.

2004 census: 4.9 million IMMIGRATES, verified INSEE figure. Among those, 3.2 million from non EEC countries, verified INSEE figure. Links somewhere above.

Muslim population (again, ethnic census is NOT allowed in France) is an "educated guess" - by demographs and statisticians - taking into account native muslim population and immigrants from presumably muslim countries. 3.7 million in 2003, +/- 4 million in 2009 if a 2% annual growth rate is applied (which is 4 times the average growth rate of french population). Links somewhere above.

Now, feel free to prefer other figures if they better suit your needs. Stormfront's (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=630250&highlight=france+immigration) should do - but where on earth have I seen those figures before?

=====

Blue Devil, thanks for your nice effort, but googling the web does NOT guarantee reliable information. Your sources do not mention their sources, or the process used to retrieve these figures. Mine do ;)

According to your documents, muslim population in France is somewhere between 5, 6, 7 or 14 million, which deserves some extra accuracy, don't you think. Could you please provide ONE reliable figure?

As to muslims "seeping in my government", my government deports yearly 30,000 people, mostly back to Africa and northen Africa. How weird the muslims in the government can't prevent that...

[bzhyoyo]

Google for: Muslim + France + Sharia Law

That makes you M.O. quite clear. Google the words you're looking for, find the first link from the right-wing blogosphere that "proves" your prejudiced opinion, then link it here, without questioning once the relevance or even the truth of the information given there.

Tsskkk, tssskk, tsssskkk...

The Internet is a great tool to get information. Shame that it came without the user's instructions for many people .

But what's the use? We prove you without any shadow of a doubt that the site http://www.billionbibles.org is full of ****, and yet you continue linking from it. :doh:

Ohh, and just so that you know: Islamic finance is just a tiny part of Sharia law, nothing has been done yet, there are just discussions, and it may be an opportunity for France to create jobs by allowing this kind of banks on its territory. If you googled a bit further, you'd understand why the different set of rules for this kind of banks. I'm not here to make the job for you, so do your homework and find out for yourself.
Btw I can't see why the anglo-saxon financial system (which has just displayed how trouble-free it is...) should be the only reference of Finance.

USCG76 : yes, your friend must be lamenting the loss of the Empire too... Many countries in Europe are not suffering from the syndrome of national loss that the UK seems to be experiencing despite a much further integration in the EU. So there must be other factors to take into account. Devolution is one for example, and it has nothing to do with the EU. But the EU sure is a great scapegoat for these people.

Skarbo : I think the last post by 6s answered your questions. Except if you believe there is a conspiracy at the head of the state to hide the real figures.

6s : I met her sister... :emot-angel:

Is it just me or this thread is going all over the place? :D

[RickN]

Is it just me or this thread is going all over the place? :D

And this would be new because??? :D

[von Bek]

America is one of, if not the, most generous nations on the planet yet you and your kind see fit to denigrate and chastize us at every turn as if we owe you some enormous apology, as we dish out billiions in foreign aid and support.

In absolute terms yes but then your economy is very large compared to others. If you take a more reasonable measure like overseas aid as a % of GDP then the US is a bunch of tightwads.

The United States perception of its own position is very different to what is seen by the rest of the world from outside.

[RickN]

Again the UK and or Europe is not the rest of the world, just a small stuckup part of it, and when it comes to total aid the US does far more then most know. They just do it through private ways instead of government programs were so much can be stolen or diverted to overhead cost.


For example, U.S. foundations gave more -- in money, time, goods and expertise -- than 11 of the 22 developed-country governments each gave in 2005, and U.S. private voluntary organizations totaled more than the governments of Japan, the United Kingdom, Germany and France each.

http://www.america.gov/st/develop-english/2007/May/20070524165115zjsredna0.2997553.html

[von Bek]

and as a % of GDP these figures were?

From Wikipedia


The EU (comprising the 27 Members States and the Europan Commission) is the world's biggest donor of development aid. The EU spent 48,6 billions in development aid in 2008. The European Commission, with more 12 billions, is the world's third largest donor.

[Ease]

and as a % of GDP these figures were?

From Wikipedia

Now there's a definitive source. :rolleyes:

[Snuffy]

Now there's a definitive source. :rolleyes:

Yep, never amazes me how all these know it alls keep referencing one of the most prejudiced websites out there, as the information on those pages are only as good as the intent of the poster. Many biased of course.

Oh well. :emot-angel:

[Nausicaa]

And what praytell makes you so certain of this ... especially an individual you may not even know?

I suppose its your far superior intellect .. or is it perhaps, he actually disagrees with your mental perception of the way things are?

Get your head out of your ass Nausica.

:dead:

Not praytell, don't project yourself on others. Britain produces nothing, invents nothing. It's bound to the economic Europe - the only way it can walk leads into the door of the CEE, sooner or later. I didn't invent that, a lot of intelligent British people think the same.

[Nausicaa]

Yep, never amazes me how all these know it alls keep referencing one of the most prejudiced websites out there, as the information on those pages are only as good as the intent of the poster. Many biased of course.

Oh well. :emot-angel:

Actually Wiki was tested two years ago by scientists and specialists all over the world and it turned out ot be very correct in almost all cases, but that just on a side note.

The idea that the US is the greatest giver in aid is a well known old myth that spooks in many American heads - the truth is different. That is because the real extent of the budget has to be compared to the GDP. Then it turns out that the US is only on place 21 (2006), with Sweden on place 1 and all major European countries following immediatly after that, including Portugal, lol. VB's claim that Europe is the largest donor and not the US is correct, as he said:
and as a % of GDP these figures were?


To make it clearer for you Snuffy: If you have 100 bucks and give 10 but if another one has 50 bucks and gives 8, who is more generous you think?
Truth is: US foreign aid , in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world.

[Nausicaa]

I noticed one of the Euros brought up healthcare again apparently buying the lefty BS that our system is bad instead of blaming the real culprit which is our lifestyle. To much good food and not enough exercise.


Correction, too much bad food and not enough exercise. The American nutrition habits are one of the worst on the planet. In general of course ;)

But true that good food and exercise will help you when you have a car accident... In short, your sentence is one of the most simplistic nonsense phrases I have ever heard.

And your system IS bad, sorry. You pay more for a lesser good service, I don't understand what you can defend about it. Probably just because you don't know better.

[Hans Jaeger]

Correction, too much bad food and not enough exercise. The American nutrition habits are one of the worst on the planet. In general of course ;)

This from the land of beer and bratwurst. :D

What did I read just a short while ago... about German soldiers in the modern Wehrmacht being too pudgy to do their jobs properly. In Spiegel, I think.

[Nausicaa]

More McDonalds and Coca Cola actually, hehe. Yes we took a lot of American habits. It's called cultural imperialism. :laugh: Still their is by far not the same overweight problem as there is in the US.

[Hans Jaeger]

"Cultural imperialism"? Don't make it sound like that's Americans' fault. You are free to choose what you eat, no matter where you live. ;)

[Hans Jaeger]

Still their is by far not the same overweight problem as there is in the US.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/o/overweight/stats-country.htm


Percent of Americans overweight... 35%

Percent of Germans overweight........... wait for it ............... 35%

[6s.]

Where did you get your 35% for Germany ?

Have a closer look: the figure given as "extrapolated prevalence" represents 35% of total population for EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY from the list, including Monaco, China, Sudan, Botswana and Zimbabwe.

35% overweight people in Zimbabwe... There I suspected something wrong in your statistics ;)

Did you notice the "WARNING! EXTRAPOLATED STATISTICS ONLY! Not based on data sources from individual countries" thingie about 3/4 down the page?

[RickN]

Correction, too much bad food and not enough exercise. The American nutrition habits are one of the worst on the planet. In general of course ;)

But true that good food and exercise will help you when you have a car accident... In short, your sentence is one of the most simplistic nonsense phrases I have ever heard.

And your system IS bad, sorry. You pay more for a lesser good service, I don't understand what you can defend about it. Probably just because you don't know better.

Having eaten food from all over the world including German food, I think ours is better. Unless of course you eat to much fast food which many people do. Taste better too.

And while you had to throw in something stupid about car accidents, yes being healthy and in shape would help you survive an accident.

Our system is not bad, at least no worse then yours and most Americans are happy with our system while openly admitting it does need a little work. As for defending it because I do not know better. I probably know more about various healthcare systems then you ever will. I am in the business and have been for over 20 years.

While we sell medical equipment and are not doctors, I sell to people, countries, and systems all over the world. I hear about the same number of complaints on a percentage basis from Canada, Europe, Japan, and elsewhere as I do the US.

And yes we pay a little more, but we also get more if we chose too. Better faster service. Better access to treatment, medicines, and the latest technologies.

EDIT: Something I have been meaning to mention, part of our healthcare cost are government mandated stupidity. Some state governments require insurance companies to cover maternity leave for men, baldness, and other such goodies. One state (CA if I remember correctly ) is even pushing to have insurance cover pet bereavement. ( Fluffy died, I am sorry but your insurance will pay for a shrink )

Elective surgeries are also included. Things like face lifts for the Hollywood crowd and tummy tucks for the 40 year old teenager. Plus just a whole lot of other un-needed things.

There is also the simple and well known fact that roughly 10% of all government healthcare dollars in the US are spent on fraud

[Hans Jaeger]

Where did you get your 35% for Germany ?

Overweight pop. divided by total pop., multiplied by 100. Standard percentage calculation.

If you don't like this source, find one that disputes the figures, don't just complain about the source I gave.

[Cameljockey]

France seems to be doing what they know best..........surrender.

[Blue Devil]

France seems to be doing what they know best..........surrender.

Now I don't think that's quite fair...

[USCG76]

:killersmiley:Go Bluedevil :biglol::biglol::biglol: love the new french national song.

[bzhyoyo]

France seems to be doing what they know best..........surrender.

hi, long time no see.
Try to take your time and post something interesting next time by 2011.

[Hans Jaeger]

France seems to be doing what they know best..........surrender.

That stuff is getting really old.

The French lost the Franco-Prussian War and surrendered in WWII. They never surrendered in WWI.

If you think that the Americans entered WWI (after it had gone on for about 3 yrs already) and WWII (after it had gone on in Europe for 2 yrs) just to save France (which didn't even actually need saving in WWI), think again.

France doesn't owe America gratitude ad infinitum, just as it didn't get it for its role in the American Revolution.

[6s.]

Overweight pop. divided by total pop., multiplied by 100. Standard percentage calculation.

If you don't like this source, find one that disputes the figures, don't just complain about the source I gave.The source you quote says it all, one just have to read it all, I've made it bigger so that your poor weary eyes can get it ;) :


Extrapolation of Prevalence Rate of Overweight to Countries and Regions:

WARNING! EXTRAPOLATION ONLY! NOT BASED ON COUNTRY-SPECIFIC DATA SOURCES. The following table attempts to extrapolate the above prevalence rate for Overweight to the populations of various countries and regions. These prevalence extrapolations for Overweight are only estimates, based on applying the prevalence rates from the US (or a similar country) to the population of other countries, and therefore may have very limited relevance to the actual prevalence of Overweight in any region:Table extrapolates US results to EVERY country listed on your page. That's why EVERY country listed on that table, incl. Nicaragua, North Korea (!), Bangladesh (!!), Rwanda (!!!), has a 35.69852% overweight "prevalence rate" (and not "population"). Yes, down to the 5th decimal :rolleyes:

C'mon, just admit it, that's a wrong google'n'pick. The only figures upon which you may rely from this page are US ones.


find one that disputes the figuresAsk and ya shall be served.
Here's one (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity), quite different. Note that it only takes into account people with a BMI equal to or over 30, which defines obesity - overweight starts with a BMI equal to or over 25...
This one (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/hestats/overweight/overwght_adult_03.htm) is even more startling, although it deals with USA only.
This (http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_determinants/life_style/nutrition/documents/iotf_en.pdf) should be of interest also.
Please note that figures between these docs are quite consistent and do NOT match yours ;)

[Hans Jaeger]

No need to shout, 6. I won't do the same for you, as I assume you can read.

There are some flies in your ointment. The "snips" attached (from your links) will point those out, and I'm sure you can figure out the significance.

Note that in the one, German BMI's are higher than UK ones, even though in the OECD survey UK is listed as the highest value in Europe.

[6s.]

Obviously it's hard for you to admit that you coud have made a blunder. Well of course you don't make blunders.

And if you don't like these sources, find some that dispute the figures, don't just complain about the sources I gave ;)

[Snuffy]

Obviously it's hard for you to admit that you coud have made a blunder.

And if you don't like these sources, find some that dispute the figures, don't just complain about the sources I gave ;)

Sounds alot like yourself 6 ... take a page from your own manual.

And if you can complain about his sources ... he has every right to complain about yers ...

:diespam:

[6s.]

Zoom=================[irony]==================>













->snuffy<-

[Hans Jaeger]

You forgot the original premise...


Still their is by far not the same overweight problem {in Germany} as there is in the US.

(My bolding)

Are you arguing that this is true?

When one combines the link I gave and yours, in particular the snips I gave back to you from them, it suddenly becomes not so simple a question, and certainly one where Nausicaa is talking from no basis in fact.

I don't mind admitting I'm wrong when I AM wrong. You seem to want me to do so based on your erroneous assessment of the significance of the data you found.

Maybe I should have "shouted", instead of just snipping pertinent parts and doing some highlighting. :D But having laid out the "flies in the ointment" once, I am not inclined to do so again.

[6s.]

From MY point of view, the original assessment is that you've quoted a useless document. I made a rather courteous attempt to have you admit it but you chose to ignore it, with your usual patronizing tone.

Not knowing whether your vision is impaired or not, I decided to make it highly visible, period.

Now, feel free to use any figures you like or which best suit your prejudices: overweight problem in the USA is the least of my problems.

[Nausicaa]

From Wiki, article about the USA:

(...)Approximately one-third of the adult population is obese and an additional third is overweight; the obesity rate, the highest in the industrialized world, has more than doubled in the last quarter-century. Obesity-related type 2 diabetes is considered epidemic by health care professionals (...)


and :
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/hestats/overweight/overwght_adult_03.htm

[Nausicaa]

Zoom=================[irony]==================>













->snuffy<-

Just Snuffy's usual tactic when a thread gets too complicated.

[Nausicaa]

And yes we pay a little more,

A nice way of putting it RickN.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/International_Comparison_-_Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png


More is spent on health care in the United States on a per capita basis than in any other nation in the world. A study of international health care spending levels published in the health policy journal Health Affairs in the year 2000 found that the U.S. spends more on health care than other countries in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), and that the use of health care services in the U.S. is below the OECD median by most measures. The authors of the study conclude that the prices paid for health care services are much higher in the U.S. Medical debt is the principal cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States, weakening the whole economy.


but we also get more if we chose too. Better faster service. Better access to treatment, medicines, and the latest technologies.


A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

[Hans Jaeger]

[QUOTE=Nausicaa;22302]From Wiki, article about the USA:

(...)Approximately one-third of the adult population is obese and an additional third is overweight; the obesity rate, the highest in the industrialized world, has more than doubled in the last quarter-century. Obesity-related type 2 diabetes is considered epidemic by health care professionals (...)

It may be the highest, but by how much? Way more than the closest others, like Germany?

The obesity rate in Germany and other countries has risen dramatically as well. And as the snips I took from 6's links show, the measures are different in USA, UK and Australia. They use objective measures to make estimates, whereas other countries use subjective measures, which, it is clearly pointed out, are unreliable because they under-report.

Put together all the links, charts, graphs etc. and you basically have little on which to base your original premise of a large disparity.

[Hans Jaeger]

From MY point of view, the original assessment is that you've quoted a useless document. I made a rather courteous attempt to have you admit it but you chose to ignore it, with your usual patronizing tone.
Not knowing whether your vision is impaired or not, I decided to make it highly visible, period.

You didn't actually do any research until I challenged you to do it. You figured that simply disputing the original link would be sufficient. You're right about the link not being a good one, but a perusal of your links shows that the question is not a simple one because there are many variables. So yes, I will admit that your links (when you provided them) furthered the discussion, but there still is not any clear case at all for the population of the USA being "way more" overweight than the closest "competitors".


Now, feel free to use any figures you like or which best suit your prejudices: overweight problem in the USA is the least of my problems.

It's not mine either. It's just an interesting exercise in de-bunking another of Nausicaa's ill-considered opinions. :D

My apologies for being patronizing. You had no problem responding in kind, did you. ;)

[Nausicaa]

It's not mine either. It's just an interesting exercise in de-bunking another of Nausicaa's ill-considered opiniions

You still have to debunk them, Hans.

[Hans Jaeger]

You still have to debunk them, Hans.

Like the speed limits?

Done, and done. :)

Your superior attitude toward the USA causes you constant difficulties except, I suppose, over beers with your buddies at the local gasthaus. :beach3:

[Nausicaa]

I drink seldom beer and a never go into a gasthaus. About the speed limits - yours are still wrong at least last time I checked your claims, I looked meanwhile at the official website of the Verkehrsministerium. And the obesity numbers of yours are also wrong - I have posted several ressources today.

[Hans Jaeger]

The link I posted re: the discussion about Americans being "way" fatter than Germans was not a good one, but 6's links (and some of the clips I made from them) show quite nicely that your contention of a major difference between Germany and the USA is overblown.

As for the speed limits, I'm still waiting for you to post something specific, as I did. Perhaps I'll go to that thread and find something new?

[Blue Devil]

Bill would give president emergency control of Internet



Internet companies and civil liberties groups were alarmed this spring when a U.S. Senate bill proposed handing the White House the power to disconnect private-sector computers from the Internet.

They're not much happier about a revised version that aides to Sen. Jay Rockefeller, a West Virginia Democrat, have spent months drafting behind closed doors. CNET News has obtained a copy of the 55-page draft (excerpt), which still appears to permit the president to seize temporary control of private-sector networks during a so-called cybersecurity emergency.

The new version would allow the president to "declare a cybersecurity emergency" relating to "non-governmental" computer networks and do what's necessary to respond to the threat. Other sections of the proposal include a federal certification program for "cybersecurity professionals," and a requirement that certain computer systems and networks in the private sector be managed by people who have been awarded that license....

Renegades, ...and Orange Jump-Suite Qualified...

[Toastmaker]

I drink seldom beer and a never go into a gasthaus. .





Perhaps you're missing some of the best parts of Germany ? Anyway - I firmly believe the U.S. has far too many fat assed people waddling around. We eat far too much sugar and processed foods and get far too little regular exercise. It's true.


:beach3:

[Nausicaa]

Perhaps you're missing some of the best parts of Germany ?

Maybe I would if I would live in Germany
;)

[Toastmaker]

Well, I know you don't live there now but you're not really THAT far from some of the better Gasthauses and rathskellers, eh ?


Even if you don't drink, I like their atmosphere -




:beach3:

[Nausicaa]

The Ratskeller in Bremen is very good :)

http://www.ratskeller-bremen.de/raeume/images/8-1.jpg

[Toastmaker]

Nice - perfect atmosphere !



:thumbs up: